The two siren tests held that day went well with my preparations for a personal talk with Dana Yahalomi, leader of Public Movement (with Omer Krieger). Dana was in Stockholm, so this was a Skype meeting. I began to get ready after the second siren; after I had arranged colourful objects behind my office chair to make the frame look nice and started to look for a matching shirt in my closet, I realized it did not have to be a video call.
So, what are you doing in Stockholm?
We're doing a 10-day Public Movement workshop. We've already done it in other places. A group of people gets together in an art centre, and we train them there, teach them some theory in practice. I like to think about it as training new international cells of Public Movement.
What kind of people come to these workshops?
Amazing groups. It's different each time: young artists, theoreticians, older activists, journalists. It varies.
And what makes them come?
It's hard for me to say. They come to be exposed to our work, to our practice and to our way of thinking. We talk about Public Movement and our past works, but mainly as an introduction to working together in that specific location. When I gave a workshop in Brussels, I did an open research: I wanted to understand Belgium, its political system, its public space, and its conflicts. Then I brought my findings to the group; we discussed them and did some tests in public spaces. I shared the work with them. Artists today keep travelling between places, so that you no longer know where you live. Many live in Brussels, few were born there.
It's a good place in the middle.
Yes. We went to a "nation branding" convention as part of the workshop, and their conclusion was that Brussels was "Business and Comfort in the Heart of Europe". Even if all they do is work there, artists must understand the political system and regulations, the way one moves through the public space and the conditioning of interpersonal behaviours, whether in a government office or in a pedestrian crossing.
An online search for "Public Movement" kept leading me to the same text: a rather ambiguous declaration of intent, followed by an impressive list of works. I get the feeling one must experience it in person, and unfortunately, I haven't yet had the opportunity. I come to this conversation with a general idea, based on the movement's official website and other Google results.
So what is Public Movement?
Public Movement…, generally speaking, it's a performative research body that creates actions in public spaces, with relevancy to both the political and the artistic field. We could also say that Public Movement is a practice we are continually developing, but it is also an existing practice in world events, in which Public Movement members are not physically present.
Do you exclude yourself from that definition?
It is something I invented, developed, and researched, and it's a way of working and thinking that I hope other people could adopt. But public movements exist. It's a generic name. We are identified with a certain form of action and aesthetics within this broad definition. Sometimes I show world events and say: "This is public movement", without owning it. The demonstrations in Tahrir are public movement.
In what sense?
These are choreographies that exist in public, exist between people. A crowd stands in a square and shouts the same words, raising their hands together and demanding power they did not have as individuals.
I read somewhere you sold one of your works.
We sold an action, to the Van Abbemuseum in Eindhoven, Netherlands. It's called "Positions", and it's really a choreography of a demonstration. A police line is set up, slogans are being chanted, and the audience must adopt a position.
Didn’t you do something similar in Warsaw?
That's right; we performed "Positions" in "Spring in Warsaw". Since then, we have also performed it in Holon, Bat Yam, Heidelberg, Stockholm, and Eindhoven. There is no set pool of slogans, it has to be constantly updated so it is relevant and responds to the particular local discourse.
How do you select these slogans?
We arrive at a place, read the newspapers, ask around, do some research, and make a new list.
Do you mean Omer and you, or the whole group?
It depends. Generally it's Omer and me. We do work with the other members a lot, but it's not a collective. There are leaders and there are members. Our members are very much involved, but we don't sit down and vote. We may bring up ideas together, but in the end Omer and I do the editing.
How is it going to work with the museum?
Writing the contract was a very complicated process. The museum gets a permit to activate and update the action in the Netherlands, according to a set of instructions and rules. We have a seven-year training process, and after they activate it seven times under our supervision, they may start doing it themselves. It's strange, because from that moment on, even after I die, they can keep updating and activating this work without me. And on the other hand, this list is a little like poetry; how can you train someone to do that?
Why would a museum buy an artistic action?
You're really asking what the role of a museum is; how it serves its public. Many museums are founded by public money, by taxpayers. If the museum's traditional role is to preserve culture, I think there is a growing desire to use this public institution to make culture, too. It defines what is interesting, needed, and important to do today. It is something I think about a lot: if museums become art makers, what kind of a relationship will shape between artists and museums? I imagine that ten years from now, a curator who doesn't even know us will simply make a list. They will need to decide what questions are relevant for their audience.
Do you agree that your work generates more interest in Europe than in Israel?
I don't know if that's true, but we work more in Europe.
It's a somewhat strange situation: on the one hand, living in a country, a defined entity, and on the other hand, a rapid movement between places, access to information about places you're not part of, and the ability to form an opinion and respond.
It is very interesting. Sometimes I feel people invite us as if we were specialists who come equipped with all kinds of clocks, so that we can feel the place's pulse. We are frequently invited to create new place-specific actions. We're invited to a place we're unfamiliar with and start studying it. There is something about this external look, which is not better or worse, that defines the artist as a diplomat, as a prophet, as a meddler. This does not seem to be related, but it is. About a month ago, key figures in the Netherland's cultural institutions received an email from Minister of Culture Halbe Zijlstra, titled "More than quality" (Meer dan kwaliteit); it announced a 50% cut in the annual budget as of January 2013. The minister believed the reduced budget should be used to preserve the country's cultural heritage and support internationally acclaimed brands. Perhaps it's just a coincidence: a year and a half ago, a museum in the Netherlands approached Public Movement with a proposition to buy "Positions", an artistic action in which the audience is asked to take a stance in controversial political questions. And now, at the same place, the government wishes to prevent it from doing just that – to import or create culture, to define the contemporary and engage in politics. From our respective Sweden and Israel, we ignore the issue.
How did it all begin?
Omer and I met.
And?
And we began developing the idea of Public Movement. We wanted to use the knowledge and tools we each acquired in different places, and in that I include art and dance studies and philosophy studies, and also being a guide in a youth movement and dancing folk dances for many years. This background made me develop an interest in public dance, the citizen's dance, the dance of the country, of the army.
When did you start discussing these ideas?
It started with an accident.
To do "Accident", you first needed to talk and decide to do something together.
We were in a car together, going from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. On the way, we saw a car accident, and like everyone else, we slowed down and watched the rescuing efforts, and the encounter between the human body and the machine. We kept on driving and talked about Marinetti and the Manifesto of Futurism, the beauty and quiet at the moment of an accident. And then we said: "let's try to do a symmetric and synchronized car accident." There was no Public Movement yet, we just organized a group of friends and collaborators and asked them to come on a Friday afternoon. Omer and I got hit by a car. We brought two cars and created "Accident".
How many people were involved?
About 14.
How many people did you invite to watch?
14. We only informed the ones that were involved. It was interesting and weird. Most people did not get it. Even today we are still being asked what we are doing and what is it that we want.
If there were Facebook then, would you create an event?
No.
Today you announce your actions in advance. I think it makes it easier for the audience.
We keep performing "Accident" in Israel and abroad with no pre-announcement. When we performed it in Berlin, near the Reichstag, Michael Rosman, who was the member that got hit, was arrested by the police and held in the police car for more than an hour, until they understood what happened and accepted it as an art event. In Tel Aviv we once got a ticket; there were two policemen there who did not really know how to respond. They told us they were giving us a ticket, and then got into their cars and just sat there for 45 minutes, trying to figure out what happened and what they were giving us the ticket for.
So what did they write?
They wrote they were passing by and saw a woman lying under the wheels of a car and people standing and watching her in silence, and they were certain this was a car accident until they finally realized it was an art event. So they gave us a ticket for causing a disturbance.
This could be an interesting discussion: do artistic actions require a permit from the police? Did you try to appeal the decision?
We once displayed the ticket in an exhibition. We did not appeal. But maybe it could have been an interesting experiment.
What are you working on nowadays?
We are working on a project in the Center for Digital Art at Holon, which is really one of the best art centres I know. It's a one-year project, which began by three months of studying the centre's archive about forgotten Zionist strands.
Quite a serious theme.
We were invited (along other artists) to take action in this archive, research, sort, modify and add materials. We came with two research questions in mind: one was about the relationship between land and body. We read letters in which the halutzim describe their physical passion to the land of Palestine, and started working on a video called "Where To", in which we investigate physical practices of working the land, getting reunited with nature and questions of territory and calling.
And the second question?
About Zionism today, out of a wish to breathe new life into the archive. The definition of Zionism is far from being a historical consensus – many disputes have been held around questions such as who is a Zionist, and what should Zionism do. People keep making Aliyah to Israel, groups of young people who have rights here. They are the real experts on Zionism today. We invited the Lech Lecha group (part of the Jewish Agency-founded Masa plan) to meet us at the archive and discuss Zionism, Jewish blood, and the declaration of a Palestinian state.
Wow. And how did it go?
It was a very moving encounter between history, politics, art, and current events. I think it was interesting for them, too. It wasn't another meeting with a guide at the Palmach museum – they got to meet young people who are about their age, with whom they could exchange ideas about Zionism and ethics.
What did you do with this group?
When they arrived, we all sat down in a circle, and everyone was asked to say their names, where they were from, whether they had ever kissed an Israeli, and "Israel is my home" or "Israel is not my home". These issues were hanging in the air all along, culminating in a real debate at the end. We tend to see them as homogenic groups of naïve Zionists, but when we started discussing what Israel should do we saw a variety of opinions. The documentation of this meeting and its conclusions were added to the archive in Holon. I hope we'll have a new action ready for next year's exhibition.
I feel your work does not have sufficient resonance in Israel.
I have often thought we should not be in the culture section, but in the news or political supplement.
A tour and ceremony at the Warsaw Ghetto, with 1500 Polish participants, two days before the March of the Living, culminating in a party? That's a sexy item that may appeal to a large audience.
To me, Spring in Warsaw is indeed more a political success than an artistic achievement.
What was going on there?
It was the result of a year-long research into Jewish youth trips to Poland. I am sure you know them well; I had participated in one myself. These trips have become part of the national Israeli memory. There is something about this ritual which makes you into a citizen with a certain calling, you belong to this history and must keep carrying with you. I must say our action wasn't critical or disrespectful; Omer always says: it's not either-or, it's this AND that. I understand this use, this instrumentalization of history.
Until it is used to justify other unjustifiable things.
Each year about 30,000 kids, if I am not mistaken, participate in these marches and walk with Israeli flags and wrap them around their bodies and sing the national anthem. The local Polish residents do not dare to go out at the peak of this Holocaust tourism, so we invited them to walk the streets and reclaim this memory, which is also part of their culture.
And what did this include?
We planned a walk that will also refer to their history. For example, which will pass by Anieliviz's bunker, a landmark of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. We sang the ballad about Janek Wiśniewski, a symbol of the Solidarity (Solidarność) movement which has led the successful struggle of shipyard workers in the 1980s. We also included Zamenhof's house, the Jew who believed it was necessary to invent a synthetic language for international communications. It's not on the common Israeli track, although it's really nearby. It was important for us to include it.
Did you do in-depth research?
We worked with Jacky Feldman from Ben-Guryon University, who had researched these journeys and also published a book on the subject. Meeting him was an eye-opener, both about the present uses of this journey and about its potential, which is our question: what kinds of walks, ceremonies, gatherings can be organized in this place around Holocaust Day or the Ghetto Warsaw uprising. It was an open call for the public. We invited people to walk the memorialization route in Warsaw. We worked with curator Joanna Warsza (Laura Palmer Foundation), in collaboration with the Nowy Theater and A.I.R Zamek Ujazdowsky. I expected about 350 people. How many people will come to a really good art event with excellent PR?
How do you explain this interest?
I guess what we did answered some pre-existing need. This is what made it so moving. We created a stage people can use to demand something, say something, be part of something which is not usually available to them.
In this sort of public artistic action, which is not defined as theatrical, there is the risk that people would not understand where they are, what they see, what they participate in.
There is no duality, there is no double standard. They arrived at just what they were invited to. We take it very seriously. As far as I'm concerned, this walk can be a yearly event. "Spring in Warsaw" isn’t a one-time artistic event. We can talk about the art world in which rituals have no value, while we believe rituals shape society. The theatricality is the same theatricality that exists in any state or educational ceremony.
Which may lead to misunderstandings.
You mean the story with Maria Technosux?
Yes.
She claimed the army was funding us as a propaganda branch, to promote a different perspective on the IDF and Israeli militarism in Europe. That is one way to read what we are doing. Once we perform practices which are normally performed by the police, army, firefighters or other official entities, it may seem strange
. When Dana and I talk about some of Public Movement's actions, I begin to understand. I am familiar with this existential state. A passport and a good English (instead of Esperanto), borders, suitcases and countless sources of information. Constantly repositioning oneself between longitudes and latitudes which are not set in space, against the horizon of private and political agendas, on vertical timelines both individual and historical. To be a citizen of the world. Being committed to this state by Public Movement, she simply finds a way to exist in it.
To me, these are the conditions I work in, whether I want it or not. I am supported by public funding in several countries, so I will not limit myself to Israel. When I work in Berlin, I am committed to it; I ask myself what problem or conflict Berliners need to face today. I believe artists should be involved in public life. You may see it as an ideology.
Not all artists see themselves this way.
Yes. To me, the position of the genius in the attic is irrelevant. Art should create political situations. Art should shape reality.
Asking questions is a common civic duty; it is not limited to artists.
Yes. Some people study to become lawyers and work at the Supreme Court, some sell vegetables, and I studied art and philosophy. I have an affinity to creativity, so my commitment is to making and designing reality. I hope I'm good at it, so this is what I work at.